By Glenn N. Holliman
An old college chum from Tennessee USA emailed me the following last night. Dave and I are of the same generation and both sons of the southern United States. Now a retired United Methodist minister (I don't think priests and pastors ever retire), he offers a reflection on some of the fears Americans seem to be having this political season. Below are his words.
How we as a society resist and kick about change and real and imagined "threats" ...
... I recall reading historic accounts of how Benjamin Franklin once railed against the German immigrants and how they should be kept out of USA, and yet I grew up in a predominantly German heritage community who were proud to be Americans.
... as a child I wondered why Negroes had to drink out of different fountains than I did ... did they have something that was "catching" ??? Today we even use the same restrooms! Imagine!!
... I remember as an adolescent when one of my friend's mother boldly stated in a church meeting "I'd rather my son marry a Black person that a Catholic." Then I married a Catholic 15 years later and it has lasted 45 years ... and, imagine, we only have 2 children! (Many believed Catholics had a secret conspiracy to take over the nation by having so many children!)
... as a teenager I completely understood that all the Protestants in my town (about 60%) were scared to death that one of their children would end up falling in love with a Catholic !!!
... as a youth I was taken to see "Unto These Hills" in Cherokee NC ... later in my life I visited the other end of the Trail of Tears in Oklahoma ... and yet I've visited the grave of my Cherokee Great Grandmother and felt a connection and pride.
... as a college kid I learned about Advent Wreathes ... and some protestants - especially the Baptists - thought they were sorta "Romish" and wondered if they really should be in a Methodist Church.
... (BTW, this past weekend we went to a music program at a neighboring Baptist Church and lo and behold there was an Advent wreath on the dias; I wonder if they know where it really came from.)
... when I entered Tenn Tech as a Freshman in 1964 our class was joined by about a half-dozen African American students ... the first ever ... and this is a free country based on equality.
... when I later served as a campus minister and Director of the Wesley Foundation Director at Tennessee Tech University, Patty and I served as an "International Host Family" for two Muslim students from Lybia ... they were often in our home, held our new baby, and ate at our table.
... Today, I ate lunch at a local cafeteria here in Tullahoma Tennessee. I noticed a lone Middle Eastern young man eating at a table and I asked if I could sit with him. He welcomed me, we talked ... even about Donald Trump and anti-Muslim tensions in the USA ... he said, "I know that Trump doesn't represent all Americans" ... what a broad mind this young man had! Many Americans would have looked at this young man with whom I sat and thought ... "he may have a bomb in this bag, I'm outta here" ... how narrow minded!
... My cousin has purchased full-scholarships to Liberty University in Lynchburg VA for his two little grandchildren; my cousin thinks Jerry Falwell's who had the idea of "arming all students to get rid of the Muslims" is a wonderful Christian man.
... another college professor of law (Cornell grad) cousin awakened to her true sexuality at some point years ago and fell in love with a lovely Palestinian Muslim. Their adopted biracial (Black/White) daughter is now pursuing her Ph.D. and is happily married to an Egyptian-American man with two beautiful little olive skin sweetheart. My mother, the aunt, was among the few of the "elder" family members who could embrace this situation with love and acceptance. The "silent treatment" was the predominant form of rejection.
... I recall a time when Gov. George Wallace promoted a Trumpian-type ethnic cleansing policy just a few miles south of where I live today ...
And, tonight I sit here in consternation about our nation and how crazy things are getting .... and realize history just keeps on repeating itself ... or something like that ...
And, even you worry me ... because I have no idea what may be up your sleeve ... so I'm going to sleep with my sling-shot and stones tonight ...
Is your name (Joseph) McCarthy??
(No, I'm not permanently loosing it; but, I'm frustrated and weary with our societal situation. But, I have a profound hope and that is that love trumps hate!)
... I recall reading historic accounts of how Benjamin Franklin once railed against the German immigrants and how they should be kept out of USA, and yet I grew up in a predominantly German heritage community who were proud to be Americans.
... as a child I wondered why Negroes had to drink out of different fountains than I did ... did they have something that was "catching" ??? Today we even use the same restrooms! Imagine!!
... I remember as an adolescent when one of my friend's mother boldly stated in a church meeting "I'd rather my son marry a Black person that a Catholic." Then I married a Catholic 15 years later and it has lasted 45 years ... and, imagine, we only have 2 children! (Many believed Catholics had a secret conspiracy to take over the nation by having so many children!)
... as a teenager I completely understood that all the Protestants in my town (about 60%) were scared to death that one of their children would end up falling in love with a Catholic !!!
... as a youth I was taken to see "Unto These Hills" in Cherokee NC ... later in my life I visited the other end of the Trail of Tears in Oklahoma ... and yet I've visited the grave of my Cherokee Great Grandmother and felt a connection and pride.
... as a college kid I learned about Advent Wreathes ... and some protestants - especially the Baptists - thought they were sorta "Romish" and wondered if they really should be in a Methodist Church.
... (BTW, this past weekend we went to a music program at a neighboring Baptist Church and lo and behold there was an Advent wreath on the dias; I wonder if they know where it really came from.)
... when I entered Tenn Tech as a Freshman in 1964 our class was joined by about a half-dozen African American students ... the first ever ... and this is a free country based on equality.
... when I later served as a campus minister and Director of the Wesley Foundation Director at Tennessee Tech University, Patty and I served as an "International Host Family" for two Muslim students from Lybia ... they were often in our home, held our new baby, and ate at our table.
... Today, I ate lunch at a local cafeteria here in Tullahoma Tennessee. I noticed a lone Middle Eastern young man eating at a table and I asked if I could sit with him. He welcomed me, we talked ... even about Donald Trump and anti-Muslim tensions in the USA ... he said, "I know that Trump doesn't represent all Americans" ... what a broad mind this young man had! Many Americans would have looked at this young man with whom I sat and thought ... "he may have a bomb in this bag, I'm outta here" ... how narrow minded!
... My cousin has purchased full-scholarships to Liberty University in Lynchburg VA for his two little grandchildren; my cousin thinks Jerry Falwell's who had the idea of "arming all students to get rid of the Muslims" is a wonderful Christian man.
... another college professor of law (Cornell grad) cousin awakened to her true sexuality at some point years ago and fell in love with a lovely Palestinian Muslim. Their adopted biracial (Black/White) daughter is now pursuing her Ph.D. and is happily married to an Egyptian-American man with two beautiful little olive skin sweetheart. My mother, the aunt, was among the few of the "elder" family members who could embrace this situation with love and acceptance. The "silent treatment" was the predominant form of rejection.
... I recall a time when Gov. George Wallace promoted a Trumpian-type ethnic cleansing policy just a few miles south of where I live today ...
And, tonight I sit here in consternation about our nation and how crazy things are getting .... and realize history just keeps on repeating itself ... or something like that ...
And, even you worry me ... because I have no idea what may be up your sleeve ... so I'm going to sleep with my sling-shot and stones tonight ...
Is your name (Joseph) McCarthy??
(No, I'm not permanently loosing it; but, I'm frustrated and weary with our societal situation. But, I have a profound hope and that is that love trumps hate!)
Thanks Dave for these words of hope and openness. As ever in this space, your comments and thoughts welcome. - GNH
Comments December 9, 2015
From a California physician, a cancer specialist -
From our retired, well-read English businessman who sojourns in France, cultivates flowers, vegetables and daily improves his wine cellar -
I have read the note. It tries to give the impression that there are all sorts of similar circumstances that the USA has faced in the past. The Germans unacceptability, etc, etc, etc. There are some serious flaws in this approach. There are also dangers,
From our Accomplished Author. Biographer and Playwright in Australia, a nation and continent with similar challenges -
From a well traveled banker in Toronto -
From David in Nomandy, France, a founder of the United Kingdom Independent Party...
A very dastardly thing, indeed, was done to your friend.
Are you thereby generalizing that all male Muslim's will rape vulnerable women?
Are you generalizing that all raped women will likely become well-married executives?
You did a very kind thing to rescue and comfort your young friend in her distress. Thank you!
Generalizing, on the other hand, is risky and can be less than kind ...
My brother in law is a rabid anti-abortionist, but he has not nor would he kill someone running a Public Health Center where abortions are performed ... but generalizations would likely label him as a murderer.
I am a while southern male, but I have never had the slightest inclination to lynch my black neighbor ... but generalizations ...
Thanks for sharing and thanks for listening.
Dave in Canada responds to Dave in Tennessee...
Tennessee Dave to Toronto Dave...
Thanks you again for your insights. Do you know if there are groups around the US actively and openly supportive of her perspective. Can you point me to any resources in addition to the readings?
Thanks.
Again from Australia...
Dave in Tennessee shares another article on the subject of fear...
Ladies and gentlemen,
From a California author -
And David from Tennessee quotes Muhammad Ali, an icon of the 1960s -
Again from our Pennsylvania judge -
And from an Anonymous blog writer in France -
Comments December 9, 2015
From a California physician, a cancer specialist -
Glen…Blog response.
Yes time passes and in far retrospect things look clearer and the heat of the moment is no longer so scalding. But…peoples’ lives and dreams were destroyed in the McCarthy era only because those people were under the impression they were living under the principles of a Constitution. And now slurs such as “he’s got low energy’ or ‘they don’t know what the hell they are doing’ are considered thoughtful discourse and a reason to vote for that proponent. The difference between reality TV and politics has surely blurred.
I am of the same era as the writer but to me NOW has the feeling of mid-1960’s before the Chicago 1968 convention and implosions that were hard to understand…except they are not. We are entering a dark period of our history.
From a scientist, a school master in the Midlands of England -
Having read Paul's contribution, I turn, briefly, from a feeling of despair about your fellow Americans, to one of some hope.
I suspect that it is only because so few Americans actually 'know' people of different cultures from their own, that Trumpism has a chance. He can say whatever he wants about Muslims / Black people / any ethnic group you choose and many of your countrymen will accept the generalisation, simply because they don't personally have any knowledge of individual Muslims, Black People, Brits, Russians or whatever.
In my time as a Schoolmaster, I worked in a school whose intake was a cultural mix, but predominantly white, middle-class children, with a very secular outlook on life. In discussions, some of them occasionally voiced bigoted opinions which, one guessed that they had picked up from their parents or friends thereof.
One would hear them pontificating about " 'Pakis' always doing X or Y". Whenever I challenged them, by pointing out that in their class or boarding house, were Tarik and Asif, who certainly did neither X nor Y, a typical response was to the effect of "We don't mean them: they're our friends; they're not like other 'Pakis' ".
When one knows people as individuals, one comes to respect them, (or revile them) as individuals. When one doesn't know people as friends or colleagues, it is all to easy to believe irrational, ignorant generalisations about whole populations.
Why the odious Trump should have picked Muslims, in particular, following the murders in California, is odd. He could just as easily have asked for a ban on entry to the US, for born-again Christians who feel that it is alright to shoot staff and patients at abortion clinics. They (and all other crazed, irrational members of American society) share two factors: first they know that they are doing the will of their god, and so no rational argument can dissuade them; second they have bizarrely easy access to firearms - even assault rifles.
From our retired, well-read English businessman who sojourns in France, cultivates flowers, vegetables and daily improves his wine cellar -
I have read the note. It tries to give the impression that there are all sorts of similar circumstances that the USA has faced in the past. The Germans unacceptability, etc, etc, etc. There are some serious flaws in this approach. There are also dangers,
Firstly, the impression is given -understandably from an American world-view, that the time frame for comparison begins with Mr Franklin!
In reality, the Islamic condition appeared in the world 1100 years before Mr Franklin, and what happened to states concerned with the 'progress' of Islam from its beginnings.More of that later.
Additionally, The emotional response to the horrors visited in Paris and California (leaving aside the very many worse prior horrors) attempts to comfort, create a framework of understanding that is almost 'folksy'. This is, I will are, a profound error.
Thirdly, and most worryingly, the cause of the note is not an observation is not an act of revulsion, sadness, excitement, whatever at the slaughters, but a response to an overweight American multi-millionaire who is using the 'all publicity is good publicity' argument to, possibly, propel himself to the first rank of American political life. That in itself indicates an almost unforgivable level of misplaced contentment with life.
Let me return to the first point - that of inappropriate and inadequate comparison.
Why do I suggest this? Is it because there is no regard to dangers and horrors experienced before the USA existed? In part. Certainly a European who has studied the history of the continent will, at the very least, know of the murderous and violent condition many states have experienced when confronted with invasion and domination by the forces of Islam, be they from the Ottomans, the North African incursions into Spain, the Persian actions taken against Christian states; I could go on for pages and pages.
Europe has experienced slaughter and violence from expansionist Islam repeatedly. Byzantium was remarked upon by all ambassadors as being an exquisite city - but only the Turkish ambassador wished it to be conquered and to become the capital of Islam.
There are countless examples of the murderous, ultra-violent expansionism of Islam during its period in mankind's consciousness.
The United States has a small Muslim population, unlike some European states. It is muscular in both respecting group identities, and also the requirement to 'be American'.Possibly that is why there is such excitement at the idea of a couple of Americans gunning down others where a religious element may be causal.
Trump has not been outrageous, given this revelation of social schism that has not existed in the same way before. He has said that the unknown danger should be addressed, and whilst that is being done, importation of further people who follow the Islamic faith should be suspended.
Where is the cause for outrage? That is easy to identify.
The liberal elite on both of sides of the Atlantic have created a series of policy actions based on the following oft repeated statement - there is an external set of dangers, based largely in the Middle East, which can be described as a massive university of Islamist radicalism that can and will attack the home populations in their societies in The US and Europe ( as well, of course, as elsewhere).
The political elite who created this argument then follow on with the suggestion that a new form of killer emerges - an 'Islamist'- who has absolutely nothing in common with, and who acts against the interests of the local, peaceful, Muslim group, or 'community' - to use the phrase of the moment.
This sounds a comforting doctrine, and suggests manageability, containment. Warm blanket and hot milk thinking.
Does this set of arguments have a consequence? YES - the invasion of Iraq, a catastrophic and utterly stupid attempt to invert the Sunni/Shia relationship by the imposition of absurd 'democracy' there. Then it justifies the attacks on Afghanistan - despite the cries from British generals from their bath-chairs that the place is a graveyard for hopes and cannot be changed from without (plus myriad other voices). Then the destruction of Libya and its reduction to a failed horror of unimaginable slaughter even to this day. Then the destruction of Yemen, and the death by starvation of three quarters of a million Shia at the hands of Saudi with American support.
The "Arab Spring' - engineered by Obama 'doing a Gorbachev' as it has been described, pulling support from the secular strongmen and giving the field to the Muslim Brotherhood - the plan only thwarted by the wise and long-suffering Egyptians. A place where America is not now welcome.
SO - putting the Middle East through the meat-grinder, to satisfy the purveyors of these myths of the danger abroad that will kill at home.
Why was this set of lies -for that is what they are - constructed?
I suggest the following reasons. Firstly, America recognises the significant sophistication of European governments and is swayed by them. In Europe, there are massive numbers of Muslims in key political states - particularly Holland, France and Britain. These states refused to accept that there is a major potential danger from an internal religious and thus cultural group. Say that killers are 'radicalised islamists', and that this radicalisation happens abroad, and you sanitise the local problem; it is reduced to insignificance. If you depend upon the votes of Muslims then even more reason to tell them you in no way consider them to be in any way dangerous or 'alien'. Say that and they will not vote for you. There are 40 + million Muslims in Europe. Quite a voting bloc. And it does behave as a voting bloc, in each respective country.
America has a Muslim population, and because of its history of diverse assimilation 'E Pluribus Unum', etc, it had no emotional potential to consider this group could be different -more separate, more challenging - than any there grouping. To recognise that would be to recognise that the continuous vitality of the nation was in decline. It would amount to an affront to the history of mutuality of obligation, pooling of cares, and the wonderful gains such compromises have provided.
Does the argument of external threat and internal peaceful Muslims have traction, and does it hold dangers today?
In Europe, there is a profound disconnect between a massive proportion of the population - now probably a significant majority - and the national governments. The varied killings are routinely described by governments - often within hours of their happening - as being the work of 'Islamists', 'radicalised overseas'. Before the forensic teams have even arrived.
They then say the home Muslim population is entirely peaceful. Later, the representatives of the Muslims (why are they needed at all if they are integrated citizens?) say that if Muslims are 'investigated' or 'targeted' by the State, this will result in more rage and further 'radicalisation'. In plain English this means - try and identify where this killing has come from, by looking at our people, and you can not be surprised if more killers emerge'.
I need hardly comment further on that.
Tony Blair has described Islam as a religion of peace. Interesting from a man whose income is intimately concerned with Muslim states. Yet any number of people who have read the Koran can see it is - in many statements made - anything but. The definition of Muslim peace? - when all the world is Muslim and bends submits to the will of Allah.
There are powerful vested interests at play; a weak need to avoid social realities in many countries in the West, and corrupted value sets that deny the beauty of settled societies and the political corruption of importing hordes of voters under any circumstances.
All this has happened in Europe, the result of which is a powder keg in Britain, and a bigger one in France. Right wing parties are on the rise in response to these corrupted practices and corrupted governmental elites. The future may become extremely ugly. But the causation of liberal left political agendas that have dominated the political space for half a century.
America is a gentle ally; and often far too humble - it has modified its beliefs in concert with Europe; the political elites merge - Democrats with British Labour and Frances socialists, etc etc.A common mindset emerges.
The edifice of delusional nonsense, profitable for the military-industrial complexes, a gift for the left wing parties of Europe, a way of kicking the can down the road by US Democrat senators - having laid waste to the Middle East, having caused Turkey to radicalise for the first time since 1918, now in the process of continuing to destroy Syria, and having helped Pakistan become so radicalised that there is a real danger of the total failure of this nuclear-armed state ( end on and on) and having made North Africa a no-go zone, the 'gain' claimed is the removed of harsh regimes!
Only naive idiots in the White House under Bush and Obama, acting with juvenile fools like Blair and this mediocre idiot in the Elysee could have achieved all this. So why does this matter for the United States that makes it qualitatively different from all other experiences?
The following comes to mind.
1 The Levant and the Middle East sees America acting against peoples in a way never experienced by them before.
2 America's allies are politically unstable and could disappear - the British Labour Party could at some point take Britain down the road to anti-American communism under Corbyn. His poaching of America - and he has many supporters - is boundless. France could become governed by the National Front. Again the loss of an ally. Germany is enraged by, and alienated by the US policies and amateurism in the White House. If allies in Europe matter any more to the USA, it must know that it is losing them.
3 The reality of danger at home must now be addressed. The lie of the overseas threat and the home front secure is exposed now.
4 The local killings in Europe and the USA are by - predominantly - local Muslims.
5 All states, including America, will have to address the centres of indoctrination -madrassas - and the preaching in a foreign language - Arabic - in mosques. That is just the start. The reality of differential birth rates will make the confrontations grow and grow..
6 Islam discusses the dynamics of jihad to take control, and shows that when Muslims are in the majority, they can act violently to convert. Islamism does not exist. Islam exists.
7 The global capitalist system needs to be heavily modified if violent inter-religious life is to be a permanent international feature.
8 Populations will become irrational if they are exposed to more murder and mayhem whilst governments transparently lie about the nature of the threat and its source.
America needs to understand the eternal nature of expansionist Islam. Islam sees the west in retreat - weak and politically moribund Europe, vacating America (off to the South China Sea,etc) and its people are being both enraged by the selection of Persia - Iran - as a de-facto US ally, and keen to expand at the expense of the declining powers.
Putin understands this. It is obvious. He also remembers what Europe and the US has forgotten or never known - that Islam grows and overtakes societies if it is not confronted and reversed.
9 Asymetrical warfare is childs' play compared to devastation a civil society can experience when attacked by a committed and massive religiously zealous force. It has happened in the Middle East time any again - the same wealth destruction will happen if it is exported successfully to the USA; Europe is already in the most desperate trouble.
And this brings us back to Mr Trump.
In part unwittingly, he has blown the lid off the entire edifice of lies, the absurdity of Middle East adventuring, the slaughter now without end, the implosion in European societies that this author lives with every day, and the sand the political houses of people of all parties have been built upon.
He is basic, reptilian in his calculus, unattractive, rabble-rousing - but profoundly potent simply because his opponents are self-regarding, morally bankrupt, population-manipulating, reality denying LIARS.
(on both sides of the Atlantic)
Happy Christmas
Terry
Dear Glenn,
I fully concur with all that Terry observes, and wish I had half his knowledge of history and the present day. It worries me very much that so many in our community are reacting in a Nazi red-neck type way to this very real threat of the infiltration of a belief system (Islam) which in so many ways is at odds with our more modern Western freedoms.
Equally worrying are the polar opposites, those ‘folksies’ who keep reassuring us that Muslims, like all our other immigrants have done, will eventually integrate and adapt to our ways. I don’t see any evidence of this, and nor do my friends in the UK.
Our former PM Mr Abbott has been branded Trump-like for recent statements that the Muslim religion should be reformed (ie, it should renounce the notion of jihadism and gender inequality and of a determination to blend Islam with politics/government). Well, I agree with him, and not often I have.
Abbott has not resembled anything like the sledge-hammer approach of Trump. I’ve maintained for the past year now that until the so-called moderate Muslims and their leaders renounce all of these notions very publicly, many in our Western communities will continue to fear them, and why shouldn’t we?
Thanks for the opportunity to have this debate.
Glenn, this is an issue that has troubled me since 9/11. I have spent a good deal of time since then reading literature, speaking with my Muslim friends (admittedly moderate), and trying to understand what is unfolding worldwide in the Islamic communities and what it means for the West.
In my view, one of the most interesting explanations of the cause of growing Islamist radicalism all over the works, including the West, are the writings of Ayann Hirsi Ali, currently a lecturer at Harvard and a contributor to the New York Times, but formally a Dutch Parliamentarian and a right wing Muslim born in Somalia. I am currently two-thirds through her most recent work, entitled "Heretic".
Ms. Ali's opinion is that the last 50 years has seen a resurgence in the more conservative and violent Islam, which is contained in the section of the Quran recited by the Prophet Muhammad during his more militaristic years in Medina after his more peaceful beginning in Mecca. She advocates a reform in Islamic interpretation of the Quran to fit the modern world instead of the seventh century in which in was written, particularly with respect to the Medina years. She also calls for a rejection of Sharia Law, which she believes is anti-woman, anti-gay, and anti Liberal, and for a reformation of the Medina section of the Quran which supports violent means to enforce the word of Allah.
She further states that one of the greatest obstacles to Islamic Reformers are Western Liberals, who routinely excuse excessive and violent behaviour of Muslims, including in the West, in the cause of political correctness. She notes that in conservative Islam, which constitutes the vast majority of Muslim countries, it is not acceptable to question or critique the word of Muhammad or the Quran, thereby making it difficulty for reform and new ideas to take root as they have in the world's other major religions.
In terms of the threat of Muslim violence to the United States, she says the following:
"A Pew survey from 2007 noted that American Muslims under the age of thirty were twice as likely as older Muslims to believe that suicide bombings in defense of Islam could be justified, and 7 percent of American Muslims between the ages of 18 and 29 said they had a "favorable" view of Al-Queda. She added that while the proportion may be small, the absolute number of Americans committed to political Islam and willing to contemplate violence to advance its goals is not trivial." She quotes another Pew survey from 2011 that found "somewhere around 180,000 American Muslims regarded suicide bombings as being justified in some way."
She adds that while religions like Christianity were configured from its inception to co-exist with states and empires alike, Islam from the outset aspired to be church, state and empire.
So in my view, the issue is far more complex that most daily media have the space to properly analyze, and that reading books like those from the respected Ms. Ali can add much to one's understanding of the root of today's rise of Islamic violence, and how we should deal with it.
Sincerely,
- David
Trump has trumped the appeasers. In Europe we face the dissolution of our wonderful differing cultures. We do have brave people prepared to face those who have lost their sense of survival. What woman wants an Islamic husband in our western world. They would be quite mad to want to do so. Where are the feminists - they should be supporting Trump to the hilt?
He is clearly right and unlike many commentators I do NOT qualify that in any way
Best wishes
A reply from David in Tennessee, USA to David in Canada...
Hello Mr. DavidM ...
Thank you for this reflection ... enlightening. I am not familiar with Ms. Ali (though I may now make myself more aware), what you have summarized of her perspective sounds quite plausible.
Having read more and dialogued more with Muslims than I may ever achieve, I want to ask your opinion based on your knowledge and your closing sentence.
What insights have you gleaned that would help "Western Liberals" like Glenn and me to know how to address and react to radical Muslimism in our country (USA)? I am serious. I may be blind in my idealistic (a preferred term to politically correct) perspectives. I need your insights. If I'm going to run my mouth publicly, I'd like to be as clear about the issues as I can be. You have something to share ... and I hope you will.
Respectfully, Dave Mc
Thank you for this reflection ... enlightening. I am not familiar with Ms. Ali (though I may now make myself more aware), what you have summarized of her perspective sounds quite plausible.
Having read more and dialogued more with Muslims than I may ever achieve, I want to ask your opinion based on your knowledge and your closing sentence.
What insights have you gleaned that would help "Western Liberals" like Glenn and me to know how to address and react to radical Muslimism in our country (USA)? I am serious. I may be blind in my idealistic (a preferred term to politically correct) perspectives. I need your insights. If I'm going to run my mouth publicly, I'd like to be as clear about the issues as I can be. You have something to share ... and I hope you will.
Respectfully, Dave Mc
A Painful memory from Terry in France -
A small but nasty memory came to me today from long ago. At University, a friend of mine was introduced to an Iraqi by the name of Ali. I thought him a barbarian, and his understanding of our civilisation was very slight.
I was asked to collect my friend from his apartment one evening, and drive her home. I was 18 years old. I knew nothing and did not respond to what followed as I should have, and as I would today.
My friend was drying tears when I collected her. In the car, she broke down.
He had raped her.
A chance association with a Muslim?
Not for me. I have lived in the Gulf. The memories sear. It was appalling in race abuse, murder, corruption and brutality. We have imported hordes of their co-religionists. We must have been insane - or coerced by corrupted political prostitutes.
The girl? I was beside myself, but I gently took her to her flat, made her a coffee, talked a little, gave her a hug, and left. We never spoke of it again.
She became the chief executive of a big business, married well, had children. And loathes Arabs.
Again from David in Tennessee, USA in response to that pain...
A very dastardly thing, indeed, was done to your friend.
Are you thereby generalizing that all male Muslim's will rape vulnerable women?
Are you generalizing that all raped women will likely become well-married executives?
You did a very kind thing to rescue and comfort your young friend in her distress. Thank you!
Generalizing, on the other hand, is risky and can be less than kind ...
My brother in law is a rabid anti-abortionist, but he has not nor would he kill someone running a Public Health Center where abortions are performed ... but generalizations would likely label him as a murderer.
I am a while southern male, but I have never had the slightest inclination to lynch my black neighbor ... but generalizations ...
Thanks for sharing and thanks for listening.
Dave in Canada responds to Dave in Tennessee...
Hi Dave.
According to Ms. Ali, it is time for liberal people in the West to support an open and critical discussion of Islam, as has happened over the centuries with the world's other leading religions, and to support those from the Muslim world calling for the religion's reform (usually at the threat of death or severe punishment) so that it is compatible with 21st century liberalism.
Ms. Ali, for one, has done so with three books, columns in the NY Times, lectures at Harvard, etc. However, despite being an award-wining human rights activist, a Harvard Fellow, and one of Time Magazine's most influential people in the world, she has been subjected to a sustained effort to silence her voice and has been accused of Islamophobia by Western Liberals. These same liberals stopped her from getting an honorary degree in social justice from Brandeis University in 2013 after a campaign from various Muslim and liberal groups forced the university to withdraw its invitation to her.
The bottom line is that we liberals, of which I am one, need to support everyone's right to question, critique and challenge the basic tenets of Islam and Sharia without being called an apostate, racist, or Islamophobic. And we need to support the Muslim reformers who are fighting for the basic human rights of people (including gays and women) in Islamic countries such as Pakistan, Iran, Iraq, Sudan, Somalia, and many more.
If you read her books, she explains the challenge and threat ahead of us much better than I ever could.
Regards,
Thanks you again for your insights. Do you know if there are groups around the US actively and openly supportive of her perspective. Can you point me to any resources in addition to the readings?
Thanks.
Dear David M
You have shed new light upon this question, and I thank you for it. Ms Ali must be a remarkable person, and we must not allow her voice to be silenced.
Steph
Glenn ...
I read the following article ... you may have seen it too on Huffington Post ... Ms. Dubensky's post is similar to mine but more eloquently and more hopefully concluded.
Joyce S. Dubensky
CEO, Tanenbaum Center for Interreligious Understanding
Yes, I Am Afraid
Posted: 12/10/2015 10:32 am EST Updated: 12/10/2015 10:59 am EST
SAN BERNARDINO
I am afraid. As someone who has devoted my life to respecting and urging others
to respect differences, I find these to be dark days. Days that leave me frightened.
Yes, I am frightened of random acts of terror perpetrated by people who claim the mantle of Islam.
I am alarmed by what I see overseas. Including the slaughter, beheadings and targeted
destruction of ancient Yazidi and Christian communities in the Middle East. Paris scared me.
As did Beirut. And daily bombings in Nigeria, Iraq and Afghanistan.
But because I'm like most people, I am even more frightened by what is happening around the corner.
Yes, I admit to being frightened by the radicalized version of Islam that motivated the killers
in San Bernardino. I'm scared that this seems similar to what happened in
Fort Hood and at the Boston Marathon Bombing.
But as a person who is Jewish, I am also frightened by white Christian men who claim
the mantle of white supremacy. And who are still acknowledged to be the largest number of domestic terrorists.
Growing up, I knew about the Ku Klux Klan and that its members would get me if they could.
Today, the KKK is not my only source of fear. After all, white supremacists come in many
different configurations. And their targets are not only the Black community. They still have no room for Jews, either.
I am also frightened by the crowds of cheering Americans - people who are excited by
prospective leaders of our country who are stirring hate and trying to frighten us. Not of violent,
extremist men and women who take action in the name of Islam and seek to kill us. But of all
the diverse women, men and children who are Muslim. I am frightened by the speeches about keeping Muslims
out of this country. And how the cheering crowds look so much like the scary films
of cheering crowds in Germany in the 1930s.
I am terrified because we seem unable to remember the recent past. Hitler systematically dehumanizing Jews
until it seemed like a good idea to kill them all. Taking away the right to own businesses,
requiring Jews to be identifiable with yellow stars, using demonic language - and adding other groups - gays, Romas, Catholics.
Why don't more people remember how we succumbed to fear during World War II and rounded up Americans
of Japanese descent - and how that legacy still haunts us? How we found others to stereotype
and target with McCarthyism?
Fear is an illness that has been the stimuli for some of our worst behavior
toward one another. It's an axiom that those who forget history will be doomed to repeat it. So let us not forget.
I know it is a human inclination to react when threatened and to want to protect ourselves and our families.
Sometimes this causes people to retreat to the familiar, stay close to "our own" and push out others.
But the real solution is not to somehow isolate our families nor see an enemy around every corner.
If we are truly to protect those we love most, we must live in an open and integrated way with the full diversity of our humanity.
And that leads me to what frightens me most. It's the future for my grandchildren. Not only do I want
them to grow up in a world that is peaceful. But I also want them to grow up as good people. I imagine them as caring
and compassionate, honoring the stranger and treating people as they wish to be treated. I want them to be people who
exemplify the highest traditions not only in my religion, but across all our different ways of believing.
But I'm scared. If they grow up in the world surrounded by hate and practices that dehumanize others, how can they help but become infected by those around them?
So yes, I am frightened, but courage is acting in the face of fear. I've named my fears and refuse to let them blind me.
I will not be swayed by fear-mongering leaders and their cheering followers who seek to further divide our nation based on stereotypes.
I will stand against the isolation of our Muslim neighbors and refuse to see every Muslim as a potential terrorist.
I'm not going to be afraid. And neither should you.
From our writer Steph in Australia
Dear Glenn
Below is a comment in response to David M’s remarks from my 43 year old son Jim who now lives in Canada.
Definitely interesting and indeed as the final statement suggests... it can add much to ones understanding of roots etc – as to how to deal with it... well not so much. I’m afraid I can only see it ever coming down to a fairly simple resolution – in who’s favour time will tell – but history definitely tells us that there’s not much for middle ground when it comes to fundamentally opposed philosophical roots. Really that’s when you think of it,... an un-refutable statement..... fundamentals is what it’s all about. If it’s minor differences then there’s generally room for whatever bending is needed – but if a person’s – or nation’s etc – fundamental ire get’s up – and that is not really a choice thing – more the basis on which they have been raised and have formed their core over.... it seems more to work the other way... then the self justifications etc all work towards opposition.
What I essentially believe is this – small differences can co-exist – fundamental ones cannot – they can choose to exist separately and independently but not together. At some point.... the modern Western tolerant viewpoint will either have to revert a little to previous more honest times and simply have ZERO tolerance of .. well whatever they/we define as fundamentally the problem – or.. the other alternative is that they decide to not.. and will in turn be conquered like so many other cultures have been conquered by them/us in the past.
Of course if EITHER groups could find a way to ditch a need to have a deity the whole world would probably just get on fine.
From a judge in the Commonwealth of Pennsylvania...
I got what was causing the comments. He is pretty much right on.
Our best defense to any instability of any nature is a constitutional government under which all persons are subject to the same laws, are equally protected, with an independent judiciary with power to see to "justice for all".
No one, no group can be above the law nor should they be beneath it.
Terry sure is an interesting guy--bring him back sometime.
From a Farmer in Central Pennsylvania -
From Canada to Tennessee -
Dave, in addition to Ayaan Hirsi Ali, I am only aware of a handful of Muslim reformers. They are: Irshad Manji, Maajid Nawaz, Zuhdi Jasser and Abd Al-Hamid Al-Ansari, the former dean of law at Quatar University. The only one of these I have met personally is Irshad Manji.
In terms of readings, I would suggest the 4 books by Ms. Ali, which are Heretic (the most recent published this year), Nomad, Infidel and The Caged Virgin. I would also recommend a Google search to find articles written by all those I have mentioned above.
We might all ask why there are not more Muslim reformers. There are, but many have been severely punished or killed for expressing even the slightest criticism of Islam. This is why it is essential for the West to encourage, promote and support a free and open debate on Islam and whether it needs to be reformed.
Hope this helps.
- David
It does, indeed, help!
Thank you so much, David M, for your patience and generous responses to my inquiries. Your information and connections are new to me. I realize I need much more insight.
I am personally driven by a profound sense of "welcoming the stranger" ... inclusiveness, less profiling and more relationship, etc. And, having known Muslim's personally for forty years and having been welcomed to the Nashville Mosque for prayers ever sense 9/11 by the Imam, I have seen and experienced enough Muslim non-violence that I refuse to succumb to the prevailing fears.
Your insights give me hope.
Thank you. Dave Mc
Thank you so much, David M, for your patience and generous responses to my inquiries. Your information and connections are new to me. I realize I need much more insight.
I am personally driven by a profound sense of "welcoming the stranger" ... inclusiveness, less profiling and more relationship, etc. And, having known Muslim's personally for forty years and having been welcomed to the Nashville Mosque for prayers ever sense 9/11 by the Imam, I have seen and experienced enough Muslim non-violence that I refuse to succumb to the prevailing fears.
Your insights give me hope.
Thank you. Dave Mc
And from Normandy, France
Ladies and gentlemen,
A news report today that informs.
For some years, particularly since Tony Blair pushed for cultural diversity in Britain, there have been many more Muslim (and other) faith schools.
The English national Schools inspectorate (OFSTED) today reports that it has found very many Muslim schools, that operate in squalor, indoctrinating children in Islamic hatred of Jews, of the host country culture and population other than people of their own belief, and proceed to turn their students into tomorrow's fighters and killers.
This is clearly done with the knowledge of the parents (what did you do today Ali, - aah, learned how to attack Jews and Kuffar - excellent -well done!) the 'community' and the generality of the Muslim population. They could NOT not know of it.
Do you know what the atmosphere and output of the schools your children and grandchildren attend? (Of course you do).
This country is poisoned by these people, the politicians (nearly all left) who support them, get their votes as a result and consistently lie about their activities, attitudes and behaviour. Add to this the massive rape-fest of local kuffar girls by local Muslims - as well reported, but UNDER reported - and you in the United States would be insane if you did not close your borders to more of that belief.
Trump hugely understates the reality; the truth and the problem.
Terry
Dear Fellow Recipients of the Not so "Happy Christmas" Missive,
I have read through Terry's argument, an argument that collapses upon itself because of Terry's claim: "1 The levant and the middle east sees America acting against peoples in a way never experienced by them before."
If Terry's assertion is correct then what is to be made of "The Battle of Derna," that marked the creation of the U.S. Marines, its Navy, and victory in the First Barbary War.
Here is an excerpt from "usmilitaryhistory.about.com which may are found at this link: http://militaryhistory.
Battle of Derna Summary:
In 1804, during the fourth year of the First Barbary War, the former American consul to Tunis, William Eaton returned to the Mediterranean. Titled "Naval Agent to the Barbary States," Eaton had received support from the US government for a plan to overthrow the pasha of Tripoli, Yusuf Karamanli.
After meeting with the commander of US naval forces in the area, Commodore Samuel Barron, Eaton traveled to Alexandria, Egypt with $20,000 to seek out Yusuf's brother Hamet. The former pasha of Tripoli, Hamet had been deposed in 1793, and then exiled by his brother in 1795.
After contacting Hamet, Eaton explained that he wished to raise a mercenary army to help the former pasha regain his throne. Eager to retake power, Hamet agreed and work began to build a small army. Eaton was aided in this process by First Lieutenant Presley O'Bannon and eight US Marines, as well as Midshipman Pascal Peck. Assembling a ragtag group of around 500 men, mostly Arab, Greek, and Levantine mercenaries, Eaton and O'Bannon set off across the desert to capture the Tripolitan port of Derna.
This was made worse by the fact that his $20,000 had been used and money to fund the expedition was growing scarce.
Departing Alexandria on March 8, 1805, the column moved along the coast pausing at El Alamein and Tobruk. Their march was supported from the sea by the warships USS Argus, USS Hornet, and USS Nautilusunder the command of Master Commandant Isaac Hull. Shortly after the march began, Eaton, now referring to himself as General Eaton, was forced to deal with a growing rift between the Christian and Muslim elements in his army.
On at least two occasions, Eaton was forced to contend with near mutinies. The first involved his Arab cavalry and was put down at bayonet-point by O'Bannon's Marines. A second occurred when the column lost contact with Argus and food became scarce. Convincing his men to eat a pack camel, Eaton was able to stall until the ships reappeared. Pressing on through heat and sand storms, Eaton's force arrived near Derna on April 25 and was resupplied by Hull. After his demand for the city's surrender was refused, Eaton maneuvered for two days before initiating his attack.
Dividing his force in two, he sent Hamet southwest to severe the road to Tripoli and then attack the western side of the city. Moving forward with the Marines and the other mercenaries, Eaton planned to assault the harbor fortress. Attacking on the afternoon of April 27, Eaton's force, supported by naval gunfire, met determined resistance as the city's commander, Hassan Bey, had reinforced the harbor defenses. This permitted Hamet to sweep into the western side of the city and capture the governor's palace.
Grabbing a musket, Eaton personally led his men forward and was wounded in the wrist as they drove the defenders back. By the end of the day, the city had been secured and O'Bannon hoisted the US flag over the harbor defenses. It was the first time the flag had flown over a foreign battlefield. In Tripoli, Yusuf had been aware of the approach of Eaton's column and had dispatched reinforcements to Derna. Arriving after Eaton had taken the city, they briefly laid siege before assaulting it on May 13. Though they pushed Eaton's men back, the attack was defeated by fire from the harbor batteries and Hull's ships.
Battle of Derna - Aftermath:
The Battle of Derna cost Eaton a total of fourteen dead and several wounded. Of his force of Marines, two were killed and two wounded. O'Bannon and his Marines' role has been commemorated by the line "to the shores of Tripoli" in the Marine Corps Hymn as well as the adoption of the Mamaluke sword by the Corps. Following the battle, Eaton began planning a second march with the goal of taking Tripoli. Concerned about Eaton's success, Yusuf began suing for peace. Much to Eaton's displeasure, Consul Tobias Lear concluded a peace treaty with Yusuf on June 4, 1805, which ended the conflict. As a result, Hamet was sent back to Egypt, while Eaton and O'Bannon returned to the United States as heroes.
Here are the lyrics to the United States Marine Hymn with "To the shores of Tripoli," underlined.
From the Halls of Montezuma
To the shores of Tripoli,
We will fight out country's battles
In the air, on land and sea.
First to fight for right and freedom
And to keep our honor clean.
We are proud to claim the title
Of United States Marine.
Our flag's unfurl'd to ev'ry breeze
From dawn to setting sun
We have fought in ev'ry clime and place
Where we could take a gun.
In the snow of far off northern lands,
And in sunny tropic scenes,
You will find us always on the job -
The United States Marines.
Here's health to you and to our corps,
Which we are proud to serve;
In many a strife we've fought for life,
And never lost our nerve.
If the Army and the Navy
Ever look on Heaven's scenes,
They will find the streets are guarded
By United States Marines.
To the shores of Tripoli,
We will fight out country's battles
In the air, on land and sea.
First to fight for right and freedom
And to keep our honor clean.
We are proud to claim the title
Of United States Marine.
Our flag's unfurl'd to ev'ry breeze
From dawn to setting sun
We have fought in ev'ry clime and place
Where we could take a gun.
In the snow of far off northern lands,
And in sunny tropic scenes,
You will find us always on the job -
The United States Marines.
Here's health to you and to our corps,
Which we are proud to serve;
In many a strife we've fought for life,
And never lost our nerve.
If the Army and the Navy
Ever look on Heaven's scenes,
They will find the streets are guarded
By United States Marines.
Simply put the United States has met and defeated Evil in the past and must now muster the courage and commitment to do so again!
Then we may all celebrate a Happy Christmas (or Chanukah) or both!
Noel Anenberg
And Terry responds -
Oh dear, you have done it before!
Not a good advertisement. But that incursion is small potatoes compared to what the USA and its allies have and continue to do now.
I would not be too boastful about that.As for 'defeating evil - it would be a rater good idea if there could be a better job done of both properly identifying 'evil' and then acting with a modicum of intelligence and sensitivity in 'defeating ' it. Sounds more like the Little Big horn too me!
Terry
Muhammad Ali has released a statement concerning Muslims and the recent terrorist actions that some people, like Donald Trump and the Republican Party, are trying to use to incite political support.
"I am a Muslim and there is nothing Islamic about killing innocent people in Paris, San Bernardino, or anywhere else in the world. True Muslims know that the ruthless violence of so called Islamic Jihadists goes against the very tenets of our religion.
"We as Muslims have to stand up to those who use Islam to advance their own personal agenda. They have alienated many from learning about Islam. True Muslims know or should know that it goes against our religion to try and force Islam on anybody.
"Speaking as someone who has never been accused of political correctness, I believe that our political leaders should use their position to bring understanding about the religion of Islam and clarify that these misguided murderers have perverted people's views on what Islam really is.”
Muhammad Ali is a long standing national treasure. Donald Trump is a long standing national shame.
"I am a Muslim and there is nothing Islamic about killing innocent people in Paris, San Bernardino, or anywhere else in the world. True Muslims know that the ruthless violence of so called Islamic Jihadists goes against the very tenets of our religion.
"We as Muslims have to stand up to those who use Islam to advance their own personal agenda. They have alienated many from learning about Islam. True Muslims know or should know that it goes against our religion to try and force Islam on anybody.
"Speaking as someone who has never been accused of political correctness, I believe that our political leaders should use their position to bring understanding about the religion of Islam and clarify that these misguided murderers have perverted people's views on what Islam really is.”
Muhammad Ali is a long standing national treasure. Donald Trump is a long standing national shame.
From David, a former leader of UKIP -
100% behind you Terry. Women fear to walk alone in many areas of Britain today. One challenged Andrew Neil , an establishment interviewer, to follow her through some of these areas where she said she would be abused and spat at by Muslim men. He hastily changed the subject. What with FGM, grooming of under-age girls, Sharia courts that support the abuse of Muslim women by men, rapidly rising rates of rape, polygamy, abortion of female fetuses and feminists complaining bitterly about men who admiringly wolf whistle to them we have a madhouse in the UK.
Cheers
From Australia in angst -
It makes me so sad to read the latest postings. All that work and sacrifice people like my great grandfather Tom Price and my great grandmother Annie did, to make the world a happier place, Tom in South Australian parliament arguing passionately for equality of opportunity for women, and religion to be kept separate from politics so that no one dogma could prevail, and the right to call a spade a spade when it was needed – those hard-won rights are now being undermined, it seems, by a small but significant percentage of hard-core Muslim immigrants to western countries and also by those ‘Western Liberals’ Ms Ali describes who doggedly tolerate the intolerable and like to call a spade a garden implement.
You might have heard of the Cronulla riots which occurred a few years ago upon a lovely beach to the south of Sydney and closest to the south western suburbs where the majority of immigrant Muslims reside. Some young Lebanese Muslim males began to stalk the beach and sling abuse at the bikini clad Aussie girls, and naturally the Aussie boyfriends of these girls were incensed, and an ugly clash inevitably followed with horrible behaviour from both sides. But the thing is, whenever the Media brings up this subject, they label the incident the Cronulla RACE riots and tend to either ignore or underplay thecause of the unrest. The catalyst had nothing to do with the Muslim males being Lebanese per se, but with their belief system which is, quite frankly and to call a spade a spade, quite repulsive to those of us used to western freedoms and equality.
At times I am filled with dread at the possibility of those freedoms and equalities achieved by our pro-active ancestors being overwhelmed and undermined by an imported fundamentalist belief system called Islam. We have some fundamentalist home-grown nutters here amongst us, of course, but they don’t tend to go round imposing their will or throwing bombs and insults at the rest of us.
Now I’m going to go and prepare for Christmas, and hope that no politically correct authority forbids me from singing a carol or decorating the halls with boughs of holly in case I offend the Muslims.
I didn't read all the "firestorm" stuff you mention, but have a thought or two anyway.
Trump is, of course, a jerk but he scares the hell out of the "anointed" by his populist views. Maybe about time some interest is kindled amongst the voters in this democracy, the great majority of whom are not racists, homophobes, sexists, etc.
Hilary would win now vs. trump ONLY because she will, quite understandably (if misguided), get the women's vote.
Much, much more can and will be said, of course.
In the meantime, "God save the Commonwealth"
Concerning the importation of Muslims into the Unted States, there are two choices - and no more. If the door is opened and they flood in, as they will, by the many million if you as a society let them, then whatever comes from that decision will come and your hands are bound; you will only be empowered to watch.
If I am correct, and the Koran describes the stages of jihad, up to and including the 'kill or convert' injunction, then one day, when that group has grown in numbers to trigger such a response, your United States would then have become a living nightmare.
SO the choice is simple.
Are you gamblers with your future?
Or do you wish to guarantee safe passage to the calm waters of cultural and social contentment.
This is not an academic matter now. It is not a warm comveration where liberals can opine comfortably, and the more radically minded respond with annoyed disagreement.
Now the matter is one of ACTION - decision time.
What do you actually want?
And in the context of that, is not Trump's suggestion - eve though the man is a chump and really quite absurd - not highly relevant, and most reasonable?
If I am correct, and the Koran describes the stages of jihad, up to and including the 'kill or convert' injunction, then one day, when that group has grown in numbers to trigger such a response, your United States would then have become a living nightmare.
SO the choice is simple.
Are you gamblers with your future?
Or do you wish to guarantee safe passage to the calm waters of cultural and social contentment.
This is not an academic matter now. It is not a warm comveration where liberals can opine comfortably, and the more radically minded respond with annoyed disagreement.
Now the matter is one of ACTION - decision time.
What do you actually want?
And in the context of that, is not Trump's suggestion - eve though the man is a chump and really quite absurd - not highly relevant, and most reasonable?
